Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

"Seabird":14f5k3zm wrote:

I have to wonder what the social dynamic is like within the priesthood between the two groups. Do the traditional RCs look down at the married convert clergy as somehow less Catholic?[/quote:14f5k3zm]

I don't think so. RC priests understand the history of the practice of celibacy and I don't believe they see it as something that "makes them" Catholic. I'd bet they see it simply as a traditional practice that was established for practical purposes and still holds some practical benefits in allowing them to devote their attentions more fully to their parish. That said, I think many priests are lonely and would see priests with families as lucky men. There may be some jealousies that result, but I don't think one could seriously argue that not having a family makes one appreciate Christ's gifts more or makes them more holy. As zuk said, there are already large numbers of married clergy in the Eastern Rite churches. I don't believe there is any rivalry between Latin Rite clerics and Eastern Rite clerics.

[quote:14f5k3zm]Seems to me something like that could change the entire structure of the Church. If enough people take advantage of it, that is...[/quote:14f5k3zm]

I doubt large numbers of traditional RCs will start going to Episcopal churches.

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

Here is an article that provides a description of the married clergy issue.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2005/10/priestsoped.html">http://www.dukenews.duke.edu/2005/10/priestsoped.html</a><!-- m -->

Jimp, yes, the american episcopal church is a sinking ship.

“Despotism tempered by assassination, that is our Magna Carta”

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

The Episcos seem to be spinning off into the weeds with many of their beliefs.  This is an interesting move and I hope it helps them rather than hurting the RCC.

What no person has a right to is to delude others into the belief that faith is something of no great significance, or that it is an easy matter, whereas it is the greatest and most difficult of all things - Kierkegaard

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

[quote:3ttspail]
Roman catholic latin rite priests take a vow of celibacy, but this is just how the RCC does things in the latin rite.  It isn't a matter of religious doctrine.  It is a matter of personal (yet mandatory) discipline within that rite.  The AC convert priests have marriages that are grandfathered.[/quote:3ttspail]

Hmmmm... I have to wonder what the social dynamic is like within the priesthood between the two groups. Do the traditional RCs look down at the married convert clergy as somehow less Catholic?

[quote:3ttspail]
I think it is more likely that you will see a parallel diocesan structure, and disobedient RCs switching over to the parallel episcopal structure.[/quote:3ttspail]

Seems to me something like that could change the entire structure of the Church. If enough people take advantage of it, that is...

[quote:3ttspail]
Did I just make things worse?[/quote:3ttspail]

Not at all.

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

&quot;Seabird&quot;:37vgmfxv wrote:
&quot;zukiphile&quot;:37vgmfxv wrote:

They already do.  The RCC already has a contingent of married former AC priests.  However I don't believe they are free to marry again.[/quote:37vgmfxv]

Interesting. Are they allowed to divorce? Or do they have to be granted an annulment?[/quote:37vgmfxv]

They are now RCs, so they would fall under latin rules.

&quot;Seabird&quot;:37vgmfxv wrote:

[quote:37vgmfxv]There is no doctrinal impediment to the RCC permitting former AC priests to marry.  Celibacy is a matter of administration and discipline.[/quote:37vgmfxv]

I don't quite understand this answer. Are married RC priests expected to be celibate within their marriage?[/quote:37vgmfxv]

No.  I apologise for the inadequate clarity.

Roman catholic latin rite priests take a vow of celibacy, but this is just how the RCC does things in the latin rite.  It isn't a matter of religious doctrine.  It is a matter of personal (yet mandatory) discipline within that rite.  The AC convert priests have marriages that are grandfathered.

&quot;Seabird&quot;:37vgmfxv wrote:

[quote:37vgmfxv]Zuk's magic 8 ball says &quot;No&quot;. Picking up a few stragglers isn't worth that much compromise.[/quote:37vgmfxv]

What if it turns out to be more than a few stragglers? And with this sort of open amnesty, what's to prevent an RC congregant from leaving the Church, becoming and Episco, and then coming back with his/her newly gained benefits. That might seem silly and overly complex, but I had an older friend who is Catholic and divorced. He went to remarry another Catholic girl and they sat on pins and needles for several weeks waiting to see if the Church would grant them an annulment before agreeing to marry them. Is it unreasonable to fathom some people might use this sort of backdoor approach into the RC Church as a method for getting things done that they otherwise couldn't?[/quote:37vgmfxv]

I think it is more likely that you will see a parallel diocesan structure, and disobedient RCs switching over to the parallel episcopal structure.

&quot;Seabird&quot;:37vgmfxv wrote:

[Maybe it's a one-shot deal, like some munis do with traffic tickets. Come in and pay your old traffic tickets before next week and we'll forgive the warrants.[/quote:37vgmfxv]

They've done that before.   This sounds different.

&quot;Seabird&quot;:37vgmfxv wrote:

[quote:37vgmfxv]It already exists.  Marianite (arabs) and eastern rite RCs (slavs and hungarians) play by some rules that depart from the general latin order, what you and I recognise as paradigmatic [i:37vgmfxv]roman[/i:37vgmfxv] catholicism.[/quote:37vgmfxv]

These people are actual a part of, and recognize by the RCs? They're not OCs?[/quote:37vgmfxv]

Those people are within the RCC as a political matter.  They are not Orthodox, and in fact are especially despised by the orthodox.

Did I just make things worse?

“Despotism tempered by assassination, that is our Magna Carta”

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100014171/pope-announces-plans-for-anglicans-to-convert-en-masse/">http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damia ... -en-masse/</a><!-- m -->

[quote:1be7qwst]The Vatican has announced that Pope Benedict is setting up special provision for Anglicans, including married clergy, who want to convert to Rome together, preserving aspects of Anglican liturgy. They will be given their own pastoral supervision, according to this press release from the Vatican:
“In this Apostolic Constitution the Holy Father has introduced a canonical structure that provides for such corporate reunion by establishing Personal Ordinariates which will allow former Anglicans to enter full communion with the Catholic Church while preserving elements of the distinctive Anglican spiritual and liturgical patrimony.”
More on this very important story later. But this is clearly a historic gesture by Pope Benedict which will encourage thousands of disaffected Anglicans to become Roman Catholics.[/quote:1be7qwst]

I wonder how many Anglicans/Episcos will avail themselves of this. I also wonder what allowing the special exceptions to Episcos will do to amp up calls for reform many Catholics have been making for years on issues like priests marrying and other questions the Vatican has never been willing to budge on. Lastly, I'm curious what sort of authority the Vatican will expect former Episcopalian bishops and clergy to accept from the pope.

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

Permit me to rescue you from being the only writer in this thread.

&quot;Bill Thompson&quot;:2za9iqty wrote:

I wonder how many Anglicans/Episcos will avail themselves of this.[/quote:2za9iqty]

Me too.  More specifically, I wonder how many anglicans will start to go to church again if this gives them/us our old church back.  One of the oddities of american episcos is that the ones who had the greatest problems with the last decades of innovation (new language, women priestesses, queer bishops) also tend to be a bit bible-ish and also pro-protestant/anti-RC.

&quot;Bill Thompson&quot;:2za9iqty wrote:

I also wonder what allowing the special exceptions to Episcos will do to amp up calls for reform many Catholics have been making for years on issues like priests marrying and other questions the Vatican has never been willing to budge on.[/quote:2za9iqty]

I would not expect that preassure to increase.  I see a real danger that some of the most horribly &quot;progressive&quot; elements of RCism will flock to the ideological freefire zone of anglicanism the way terrorists moved into Lebanon after the isreali/phalangist experiment failed.

&quot;Bill Thompson&quot;:2za9iqty wrote:

Lastly, I'm curious what sort of authority the Vatican will expect former Episcopalian bishops and clergy to accept from the pope.[/quote:2za9iqty]

This is where see a huge divergence in culture, and significant chance for problems.

In the US, do you think this primarily illustrates the opportunity presented by the disintegration of american anglicans, or the cultural shift of US catholics that might make such a union palatable?

“Despotism tempered by assassination, that is our Magna Carta”

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

&quot;zukiphile&quot;:1yf94olr wrote:

Permit me to rescue you from being the only writer in this thread.[/quote:1yf94olr]
I'm not too proud to accept pity posts.

&quot;zukiphile&quot;:1yf94olr wrote:

Me too.  More specifically, I wonder how many anglicans will start to go to church again if this gives them/us our old church back.[/quote:1yf94olr]
I doubt this will really gain traction. It sounds like interested diocese (is that what you call them? episcopates?) have to sign up as a whole. Might be tough to pull off. I also think suspicion of Papal authority will prove too strong to overcome.

[quote:1yf94olr]I would not expect that preassure to increase.  I see a real danger that some of the most horribly &quot;progressive&quot; elements of RCism will flock to the ideological freefire zone of anglicanism the way terrorists moved into Lebanon after the isreali/phalangist experiment failed.[/quote:1yf94olr]

That's an interesting point, you might be right. However, I think a lot of RCs would want to keep their current practice but just loosen certain things up. They wouldn't want to join an episcopal parish and that option might not be available to them if there are no RC/episcopal parishes near them.

[quote:1yf94olr]In the US, do you think this primarily illustrates the opportunity presented by the disintegration of american anglicans, or the cultural shift of US catholics that might make such a union palatable?[/quote:1yf94olr]

I don't know if it is palatable. I think Ben is motivated to make this attempt by the former circumstance, though.

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

&quot;Bill Thompson&quot;:3jycleo8 wrote:

I doubt this will really gain traction. It sounds like interested diocese (is that what you call them? episcopates?) have to sign up as a whole. Might be tough to pull off. I also think suspicion of Papal authority will prove too strong to overcome.[/quote:3jycleo8]

For mainline american episcos, that is undoubtedly correct.  There is also a financial consideration in that some of the mainline diocese have generous endowments that would come with them.

However, there are something like 14 other episcopal churches in the US that fall under the authority of other bishops.  The episcopal church around the corner from me has an african bishop.  Splinter remnants of episcos who were previously driven from the main body could find the security and stability of the RCC doctrinal authority very attractive.

The fetching Mrs last week investigated preparation for first communion for ourolder daughter at that church.  The church secretary responded to my name, Matthew, with &quot;What a wonderfully biblical name!&quot;.  Wrong answer.  But I may stop by and sit in to see what hub-bub Ben has stirred.

“Despotism tempered by assassination, that is our Magna Carta”

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

I am confused by this. Is Bennie offering to allow Episcos and Anglicans disaffected by the recent changes in the AC back into the RC fold, [i]and still continue to maintain the freedoms and allowances they traditionally enjoyed? For instance, will AC clergy become RC clergy and be allowed to keep their wives? What of the traditional RC clergy and congregation? Will those AC allowances be extended to them? And how will most of them react to it?

It seems like this has the potential for creating a new class within the RC.

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

&quot;Seabird&quot;:bivax4hv wrote:

I am confused by this. Is Bennie offering to allow Episcos and Anglicans disaffected by the recent changes in the AC back into the RC fold, and still continue to maintain the freedoms and allowances they traditionally enjoyed? [/quote:bivax4hv]

The degree to which the answer is yes is the question BT raises.

&quot;Seabird&quot;:bivax4hv wrote:

For instance, will AC clergy become RC clergy and be allowed to keep their wives? [/quote:bivax4hv]

They already do.  The RCC already has a contingent of married former AC priests.  However I don't believe they are free to marry again.

There is no doctrinal impediment to the RCC permitting former AC priests to marry.  Celibacy is a matter of administration and discipline.

&quot;Seabird&quot;:bivax4hv wrote:

What of the traditional RC clergy and congregation? Will those AC allowances be extended to them? [/quote:bivax4hv]

Zuk's magic 8 ball says &quot;No&quot;.  Picking up a few stragglers isn't worth that much compromise.

&quot;Seabird&quot;:bivax4hv wrote:

It seems like this has the potential for creating a new class within the RC.[/quote:bivax4hv]

It already exists.  Marionite (arabs) and eastern rite RCs (slavs and hungarians) play by some rules that depart from the general latin order, what you and I recognise as paradigmatic [i:bivax4hv]roman[/i:bivax4hv] catholicism.

“Despotism tempered by assassination, that is our Magna Carta”

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

&quot;zukiphile&quot;:22j82xop wrote:

They already do.  The RCC already has a contingent of married former AC priests.  However I don't believe they are free to marry again.[/quote:22j82xop]

Interesting. Are they allowed to divorce? Or do they have to be granted an annulment?

[quote:22j82xop]There is no doctrinal impediment to the RCC permitting former AC priests to marry.  Celibacy is a matter of administration and discipline.[/quote:22j82xop]

I don't quite understand this answer. Are married RC priests expected to be celibate within their marriage?

[quote:22j82xop]Zuk's magic 8 ball says &quot;No&quot;. Picking up a few stragglers isn't worth that much compromise.[/quote:22j82xop]

What if it turns out to be more than a few stragglers? And with this sort of open amnesty, what's to prevent an RC congregant from leaving the Church, becoming and Episco, and then coming back with his/her newly gained benefits. That might seem silly and overly complex, but I had an older friend who is Catholic and divorced. He went to remarry another Catholic girl and they sat on pins and needles for several weeks waiting to see if the Church would grant them an annulment before agreeing to marry them. Is it unreasonable to fathom some people might use this sort of backdoor approach into the RC Church as a method for getting things done that they otherwise couldn't?

Most of these questions are rhetorical - I don't expect to have specific answers from anyone here. I suspect that there will be some cases that will have to be ruled on individually. Maybe it's a one-shot deal, like some munis do with traffic tickets. Come in and pay your old traffic tickets before next week and we'll forgive the warrants.

[quote:22j82xop]It already exists.  Marianite (arabs) and eastern rite RCs (slavs and hungarians) play by some rules that depart from the general latin order, what you and I recognise as paradigmatic [i:22j82xop]roman[/i:22j82xop] catholicism.[/quote:22j82xop]

These people are actual a part of, and recognize by the RCs? They're not OCs?

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

Bennie Rocks!  Those weak willed multicultural diversity pansies in the CofE wont do anything but stand by and watch their church crumble.  Given comments about Islam from ArchCoward of Canterbury Rowan....Bennie is right to move to save the Christian faithful from the CofE.

[quote:3gscrrlr][b:3gscrrlr]Pope Benedict XVI paves way for thousands of disaffected Anglicans to cross over to Rome
[/b:3gscrrlr]
Pope Benedict XVI has paved the way for thousands of Anglicans who are disillusioned by the church’s stance on female clergy and homosexuality to convert to Roman Catholic

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6386833/Pope-Benedict-XVI-paves-way-for-thousands-of-disaffected-Anglicans-to-cross-over-to-Rome.html">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... -Rome.html</a><!-- m -->[/quote:3gscrrlr]

[quote:3gscrrlr][b:3gscrrlr]Archbishop Vincent Nichols welcomes Anglican convert plan as an 'opportunity'[/b:3gscrrlr]

The Archbishop of Westminster, the Most Rev Vincent Nichols, has welcomed changes that will allow disaffected Anglicans to convert to Catholicism as &quot;a challenge and an opportunity&quot;.

Some 400,000 Anglicans in a breakaway movement called the Traditional Anglican Communion could be the first to convert after they and other groups, unhappy with the Anglican Communion’s increasingly liberal stance on female clergy and homosexuality, petitioned the Pope for reconciliation with Rome.

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/6399855/Archbishop-Vincent-Nichols-welcomes-Anglican-convert-plan-as-an-opportunity.html#">http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... nity.html#</a><!-- m -->[/quote:3gscrrlr]

[quote:3gscrrlr][b:3gscrrlr]The Pope Lets a Thousand Liturgies Bloom[/b:3gscrrlr]

By FRANCIS X. ROCCA

Vatican City

WSJ

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704224004574489223604206290.html?mod=googlenews_wsj">http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... lenews_wsj</a><!-- m -->[/quote:3gscrrlr]


[quote:3gscrrlr][b:3gscrrlr]The lighting of the beacons[/b:3gscrrlr]

Belmont Club

Andrew Brown of the Guardian called the Roman Catholic Church’s offer to admit disaffected Anglicans “the end of the Anglican Communion”, describing the 1/7th of the clergy which its believes will jump ship as a death blow. If so, it is the coup de grace. The Anglican Communion has long been hemorrhaging members, fleeing from a church which many of its members believe has abandoned its traditional beliefs. Most of those who were expected to take up the Catholic Church’s offer to convert are described as social conservatives who think their community has gone too far toward embracing openly gay bishops and women priests. The Daily Mail put the indictment against the Archbishop of Canterbury plainly: he’s no longer a divine, but a politician and those are dime a dozen. “If our Archbishop spent less time fretting about climate change, he might notice the pope is about to mug him”.

continued..

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2009/10/22/the-lighting-of-the-beacons/">http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernande ... e-beacons/</a><!-- m -->[/quote:3gscrrlr]


[quote:3gscrrlr][b:3gscrrlr]Benedict’s Gambit [/b:3gscrrlr]

By ROSS DOUTHAT

NYTimes

…the pope is going back to basics - touting the particular witness of Catholicism even when he’s addressing universal subjects, and seeking converts more than common ground.

...

But in making the opening to Anglicanism, Benedict also may have a deeper conflict in mind - not the parochial Western struggle between conservative and liberal believers, but Christianity’s global encounter with a resurgent Islam.

continued...

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/26/opinion/26douthat.html?_r=1">http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/26/opini ... .html?_r=1</a><!-- m -->[/quote:3gscrrlr]

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

Latin America is RC central.

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

Even if ALL the put-off Anglicans are lapped up, the RCs are still left with a withering western-world membership.

I hope this wasn't &quot;Plan A&quot; to shore up the base.

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/0905214.htm">http://www.catholicnews.com/data/storie ... 905214.htm</a><!-- m -->

&quot;CNS&quot;:juai9zae wrote:

[b:juai9zae]Pope, Anglican leader pledge to continue dialogue for unity[/b:juai9zae]


… the two leaders discussed &quot;recent events affecting relations between the Catholic Church and Anglican Communion,&quot; a reference to Pope Benedict's apostolic constitution establishing &quot;personal ordinariates&quot; -- structures similar to dioceses -- for Anglicans who want to enter full communion with the Roman Catholic Church while maintaining some of their Anglican heritage.

The announcement appeared to cause some tension, mainly because Archbishop Williams was not informed about the papal provision until shortly before it was announced publicly in late October.

Despite the Vatican's clear statements that the move was a pastoral response to people who contacted the Vatican seeking to become Catholic, many headlines treated it as the Vatican taking unfair advantage of tensions within the Anglican Communion over the ordination of women as priests and bishops.

In an interview Nov. 21 with Vatican Radio, Archbishop Williams said he told the pope that the way the announcement was handled &quot;put us in an awkward position,&quot; but he also said media presentations of the announcement as a &quot;dawn raid on the Anglican Communion&quot; were simply wrong.

&quot;People become Roman Catholics because they want to become Roman Catholics, because their consciences are formed in a certain way and they believe this is the will of God for them. And I wish them every blessing in that,&quot; the archbishop said.

&quot;But I don't think it's a question of the Roman Catholic Church as it were trying to attract by advertising or by special offers,&quot; he said, adding that for that reason &quot;I don't particularly worry about it.&quot;

Asked for the pope's reaction, the archbishop said, &quot;the main message was that the constitution did not represent any change in the Vatican's attitude toward the Anglican Communion as such.&quot;


…Cardinal Walter Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity, and Archbishop Williams both said they thought the next topic to be treated by ARCIC would be the relationship between the local and universal church.

Archbishop Williams told Vatican Radio that if ARCIC studied the topic, the question of the ordination of women probably would come up, at least in the context of the decision-making authority of local dioceses or provinces.

In a speech Nov. 19 at Rome's Pontifical Gregorian University, the archbishop said 40 years of ecumenical dialogue involving Catholics, Orthodox and Anglicans have challenged a &quot;simplistic opposition&quot; between the local and universal church &quot;as if the choice were between a conglomerate of local and almost randomly diverse communities vaguely federated together and a monolithic global corporation.&quot;

But, he said, ecumenically there still is a question regarding whether &quot;there is a mechanism in the church that has the clear right to determine for all where the limits of Christian identity might be found,&quot; and whether &quot;the integrity of the church (is) ultimately dependent on a single identifiable ministry of unity (the papacy) to which all local ministries are accountable.&quot;

In the end, the archbishop said in his speech, the question can be formed as: Is the universal church &quot;an entity from which local churches derive their life, or is it the perfect mutuality of relationship between local churches?&quot;

Theological debates over the relationship between the universal church and the local church are not new. In fact, for several years beginning in the late 1990s, Cardinal Kasper and the then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict, conducted a vigorous debate on the theme in public speeches and in theological journals and magazines, including the Jesuit-run America magazine.

Cardinal Kasper opposed what he called a &quot;one-sided emphasis&quot; on the universal church and a corresponding decline in the authority of local bishops around the world.

Cardinal Ratzinger argued that one could not deny the primacy of the universal church over the local church, especially because the church is a reality that transcends geographical limits.

In the end, the future pope said that if the argument is understood properly, differences &quot;can and perhaps should coexist peacefully.&quot;
[/quote:juai9zae]

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

I've stayed out of this discussion because I really don't care all that much about the ramblings of the RC church.

These two lines, however, show promise.

[quote:ipdw13bx]Cardinal Ratzinger argued that one could not deny the primacy of the universal church over the local church, especially because the church is a reality that transcends geographical limits.

In the end, the future pope said that if the argument is understood properly, differences &quot;can and perhaps should coexist peacefully.&quot;[/quote:ipdw13bx]

Existence was given us for action.  Our worth is determined by the good deed we do, rather than by the fine emotions we feel."      George MacDonald, Scottish theologian and pastor

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

&quot;glfredrick&quot;:21xraqwu wrote:

I really don't care all that much about the ramblings of the RC church.[/quote:21xraqwu]

I imagine the feeling is mutual.

[quote:21xraqwu]These two lines, however, show promise.[/quote:21xraqwu]

In what way?

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

&quot;Bill Thompson&quot;:2mzbzfoh wrote:
&quot;glfredrick&quot;:2mzbzfoh wrote:

I really don't care all that much about the ramblings of the RC church.[/quote:2mzbzfoh]

I imagine the feeling is mutual.

[quote:2mzbzfoh]These two lines, however, show promise.[/quote:2mzbzfoh]

In what way?[/quote:2mzbzfoh]

The RC has never before admitted (publically anyway) that there IS a Church universal -- which is a biblical tenet.

It was either RC way or the highway.

About the RC, I would LIKE to include them in my thoughts, but they make themselves irrelevant, other than the fact that they hold what is close to a theocracy over such a large part of the world's population.  They certainly are not biblically spiritual.  They've sort of invented their own deal over the centuries since the Apostles and Fathers of the Church started this whole deal called Christianity rolling, even to the invention of the papcay, with a contrived history to make it appear legitimate.  How or why ought one really &quot;care&quot; about that?

Existence was given us for action.  Our worth is determined by the good deed we do, rather than by the fine emotions we feel."      George MacDonald, Scottish theologian and pastor

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

&quot;glfredrick&quot;:3galrlqh wrote:

The RC has never before admitted (publically anyway) that there IS a Church universal ...[/quote:3galrlqh]

Except of course for the catholic, i.e. universal, church.

&quot;glfredrick&quot;:3galrlqh wrote:

How or why ought one really &quot;care&quot; about that?[/quote:3galrlqh]

If you are concerned about christianity, the state of its main body would seem to be important.

“Despotism tempered by assassination, that is our Magna Carta”

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

<!-- m --><a class="postlink" href="http://manhattandeclaration.org/index.php">http://manhattandeclaration.org/index.php</a><!-- m -->

Existence was given us for action.  Our worth is determined by the good deed we do, rather than by the fine emotions we feel."      George MacDonald, Scottish theologian and pastor

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

&quot;zukiphile&quot;:fifyzo96 wrote:
&quot;glfredrick&quot;:fifyzo96 wrote:

The RC has never before admitted (publically anyway) that there IS a Church universal ...[/quote:fifyzo96]

Except of course for the catholic, i.e. universal, church.

&quot;glfredrick&quot;:fifyzo96 wrote:

How or why ought one really &quot;care&quot; about that?[/quote:fifyzo96]

If you are concerned about christianity, the state of its main body would seem to be important.[/quote:fifyzo96]

There is a difference between &quot;catholic&quot; (universal) and Roman Catholic = not universal.

And, yes, I am concerned about &quot;the main body&quot; of believers.  I said so above.  I am not so concerned with whomever is the current defacto &quot;viccar of God&quot; etc.  In fact, I find most of the practices (not the people) of the RC to be borderline abhorent and anti-biblical in many a way.

Existence was given us for action.  Our worth is determined by the good deed we do, rather than by the fine emotions we feel."      George MacDonald, Scottish theologian and pastor

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

&quot;glfredrick&quot;:3t9xbxq0 wrote:

There is a difference between &quot;catholic&quot; (universal) and Roman Catholic = not universal.[/quote:3t9xbxq0]

I don't doubt that you believe that, but in RCC-land, that isn't so.  They teach that there is only one church, and that bodies that do not recognise the authority of the RCC are less perfect parts of that church.

I bet if you give BT ten minutes and google, he will give RCC public proclamations on that point.

&quot;glfredrick&quot;:3t9xbxq0 wrote:
&quot;zukiphile&quot;:3t9xbxq0 wrote:

If you are concerned about christianity, the state of its main body would seem to be important.[/quote:3t9xbxq0]

***
And, yes, I am concerned about &quot;the main body&quot; of believers. I said so above. I am not so concerned with whomever is the current defacto &quot;viccar of God&quot; etc. In fact, I find most of the practices (not the people) of the RC to be borderline abhorent and anti-biblical in many a way.[/quote:3t9xbxq0]

Again, I don't doubt the sincerity of your belief in this, but note that it puts you in the minority of christians worldwide.  Lots of the tension that keeps historical schism from being repaired comes from culturally radical protestants who would not be happy to submit to the relatively conservative doctrine of the RCC.  Don't you think that the RCC serves as a mooring point for western christianity?

I don't understand why you posted the manhatten link.  Why did you?

“Despotism tempered by assassination, that is our Magna Carta”

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

[quote:8kkl2xj6]Don't you think that the RCC serves as a mooring point for western christianity?[/quote:8kkl2xj6]
Through my study of Christian history, I've recognized that one of the RCC's strengths is its ability to weather storms; they are a rock and bastion immovable to &quot;popular&quot; and &quot;trendy&quot; Christian fads, fads that, in hindsight, weren't very good or biblical.

Unfortunately, in the 1900s it looks as if they uprooted themselves from God's Word (the ultimate Rock) and anchored themselves to speculative science, allowing fallible ideas of our past to interpret God's Word.  In their haste to prevent another Galileo incident, they inadvertently do the same thing.*  What happens when you moor to a drifting boat?  Hindsight will bear out the repercussions of this.

* Flat earth ideas came from Greek thought and were read into the Bible.  Now, ideas of our origins likewise come from philosophers who reject God's Word as trustworthy. 

P.S.  We've been over this subject before, I just wanted to comment that the RCC has indeed been a good mooring point, historically.

Re: Pope poaching put-off protestants

I raise the question just because the RCC is so influential that it is hard for me to imagine not being concerned with what it does, for better or worse.

JP2 had something to do with the demoralisation of the soviets (better).  When the RCC shacked up with communists in central and south america (worse), it was a matter of concern far outside the RCC.

As an anglican, I had to think during the Gene Robinson business that RCs don't have to fight the ascendancy of a bishop who publicly insists on continuing a behavior so that liberal members can show how open-minded they can be, or wondering whether they will get a priest or priestess the next service they attend.

“Despotism tempered by assassination, that is our Magna Carta”

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