News and Politics Forum

Jesus Is My Pilot · 08-09-2007 01:42 PM

I listened to the NBC GOP debate and heard this-

The Question:
“I have made several mistakes that have been defining moments in my life because of what I learned or was forced to realize. What is the defining mistake of your life and why?”

The response from Rep Tom Tancredo:
"I have no doubt of what the greatest mistake in my life has been. And that is that it took me probably 30 years before I realized that Jesus Christ is my personal savior. "

Maybe he misspoke, maybe he said exactly what he meant, maybe he was going to say more but had gas. As a theology geek I'm going to take his comments and highlight a hot topic in Christian theology today... I'm sure this has you all very excited...

The short version:
Taking Jesus as your savior won’t save you.

To put it another way… Recognizing you need help doesn’t magically get you help, you have to submit yourself to something to get help.

The correct short version:
Taking Jesus as your lord and savior will save you.

The reason I bother to bring this is up is because this has been a topic of discussion in Christian circles for a long time and it’s cited as a reason for the poor image Christianity has in the west right now. There are millions of people going to church on Christmas and Easter, calling Jesus their savior but acting like jerks the moment they walk out the church doors. Why is this? It’s because people may recognize they are messed up but they aren’t willing to give up anything of themselves to get it. They certainly won’t give up their lives to God as they are called to do.

The end result of this is a society of “Christians” that doesn’t look any different then the rest of the society around them. Looking from the outside in, why would anybody want to join these “Christians”?

On the flip side, what is the result of someone needing a savior and giving their life to Christ as Lord? It’s an explosion of the faith in places like China, Africa, Korea and India. It’s people wanting to be around Christians because they are different (in a good way) from the society around them. It’s all the good stuff we Christians are supposed to be without the primary label of hypocrite we so richly deserve. This doesn’t mean these Christians are not hypocrites, hypocrisy is weakness of the human condition, but it does remove the label as the defining feature.

I say all this knowing that I’m a terrible example.

Karl Lazlo, Esq. · 08-09-2007 02:03 PM

A little early to start drinking, isn't it, JIMP?

It wasn't until a scant few years ago that I welcomed John Moses Browning into my life.

Dancer · 08-09-2007 02:06 PM

I say all this knowing that I’m a terrible example.

Actually, thats what makes you a good christian, and why you are one of the few I actually respect.

zukiphile · 08-09-2007 02:26 PM

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:
As a theology geek I'm going to take his comments and highlight a hot topic in Christian theology today...

OK, I'll be the heathen!

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:
The response from Rep Tom Tancredo:
"I have no doubt of what the greatest mistake in my life has been. And that is that it took me probably 30 years before I realized that Jesus Christ is my personal savior. "

As you note, that may not have been an exhaustive statement of his theology.

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:
The end result of this is a society of “Christians” that doesn’t look any different then the rest of the society around them. Looking from the outside in, why would anybody want to join these “Christians”?

I don't believe that a christian would stand out in a christian society as he would in a hindu or muslim one.

That said, much of the good a christian can do involves maintenance of an orderly and charitable life in which women and children are safe, people keep their word and the poor are cared for. That many of these goals may be shared by a muslim, hindu or jew doesn't detract from the place of such an ethic in a christian.

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:
On the flip side, what is the result of someone needing a savior and giving their life to Christ as Lord? It’s an explosion of the faith in places like China, Africa, Korea and India. It’s people wanting to be around Christians because they are different (in a good way) from the society around them.
***
I say all this knowing that I’m a terrible example.

I don't believe you are a terrible example, but I do think you imply a misstatement of what christianity does. I resist the notion of christianity as a program that makes you better and more charismatic, so that people want to be around you. It may make you the life of the party, but I don't see that effect as universal.

Some of the most committed christians I've known are highly focused and exactly zero fun to be around. If charisma were the test, I would be marked for complete estrangement.

Missionaries who work outside christendom are owed a great debt and have a job that differs significantly from those who work within it. Some of those differences are matters we've discussed in the past.

If you are looking for reasons that ordinary westerners find nothing special in modern christianity, I'd say the modern practice of it -in church- carries much of the blame. If you go to church and find little or nothing more than a nebulous urging to be good and do good things, there is little to draw anyone from the same bland culture.

2.FOH. · 08-09-2007 02:55 PM

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:
It’s an explosion of the faith in places like China, Africa, Korea and India. It’s people wanting to be around Christians because they are different (in a good way) from the society around them. It’s all the good stuff we Christians are supposed to be without the primary label of hypocrite we so richly deserve. This doesn’t mean these Christians are not hypocrites, hypocrisy is weakness of the human condition, but it does remove the label as the defining feature.

Every missionary I've heard mentions the enthusiasm of Christians
in their respective areas.

Church services go on for hours & hours.
(What?!....but lunch specials at LongHorn steakhouse will be OVER by the time were done!)

There's a childlike demeanor that exists, that most in the West lost long ago. We're spoiled.
The misses & I are helping with VBS this week. Kids haven't polished their hypocrtical skills
at that age. It's fun.

There's a reason Christ states:

"Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of God.
Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall not enter therein.
And he took them up in his arms, put his hands upon them, and blessed them."

Oh & I suck at it too, JIMP.

Jesus Is My Pilot · 08-09-2007 03:24 PM

Good points Matt, I'll admit I left out some unpacking for the purposes of brevity. I almost gave myself a tl;dr.

When I mentioned Christians being different it's not necessarilly with regards to the good deeds they do or their charisma, it's mostly about something deeper. Removing one's self from the center of their life is one aspect, living for something something else is another. Words like joy, hope, peace, etc. when flowing from something inside someone gets the attention of people... especially when someone knew the person before. Please note I'm not saying these features are exclusive to Christianity, I'm noting they are generally absent from the person who claims Christ as their savior but not lord.

zuk wrote:
If you are looking for reasons that ordinary westerners find nothing special in modern christianity, I'd say the modern practice of it -in church- carries much of the blame. If you go to church and find little or nothing more than a nebulous urging to be good and do good things, there is little to draw anyone from the same bland culture.

I don't disagree with this at all. There are many churches that are completely spiritually dead. People are not fed anything in them but dead traditions and a little bit of feelgoodery.

zukiphile · 08-09-2007 03:38 PM

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:
Good points Matt, ...

Stop agreeing with me damnit! This is an argument!

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:
Words like joy, hope, peace, etc. when flowing from something inside someone gets the attention of people... especially when someone knew the person before.

This sounds somewhat like what a bibleguy friend in college described as "witnessing".

I don't know whether it is the display of emotion to which I have a visceral reaction. I remember some RCs who instructed in their "Christ is your buddy" style with a smile I found unsettling.

When I hear a fellow speak about his own emotional experiences, I have to resist an urge to punch him in the throat.

I'm sure that's mostly my problem though.

Thundersnow · 08-09-2007 04:22 PM

Salvation has been a topic of the Wrold Thelogical conferance since it began.

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:
Words like joy, hope, peace, etc. when flowing from something inside someone gets the attention of people... especially when someone knew the person before. Please note I'm not saying these features are exclusive to Christianity, I'm noting they are generally absent from the person who claims Christ as their savior but not lord.

I am not sure that certain words flow from a saved Christian more than another. It is very hard, I would say almost impossible, to be a Christian. Christ made a point to seperate himself from political leaders and those in power. As you said faith without works is dead and works without faith is dead; you can't have one done meaninfully without the other. With Christian being such a large umbrella term, covering hundreds if not thousands of beliefs, perhaps he is a Christian. I certainly doubt most of the people around me who claim to live for God and who's lives are still highlighted by a lust for money and doing little good. Christians who concentrate on condemnation and hate. We are all hippocrites, including Pual (rom 7:19).

Jesus Is My Pilot · 08-09-2007 05:21 PM

zukiphile wrote:
When I hear a fellow speak about his own emotional experiences, I have to resist an urge to punch him in the throat.

I'm sure that's mostly my problem though.

Heh, I hate to be so agreeable but... I agree again. To the Christian there is another part to the equation in that scenario. God must be active in the process. If you are ready to punch the guy in the throat today, tomorrow you might feel differently. God might also be using the guy to plant a seed for you to ponder as you sit weeping in the office hugging your pennies

I don't believe the activity of God's spirit in His believers is ever fully void.

I am not sure that certain words flow from a saved Christian more than another.

I'm sorry, my word choice may have been poor. I mean that joy, hope, peace, etc. are emotions that should flow from a believer.

I'm not saying Tancredo is saved or not, I was just using his statement as a highlight of something that is an issue. He probably has no idea about the theoligical delineation I'm making but still probaby has a lot more treasures in Heaven then I do.

Qwinn · 08-09-2007 07:26 PM

As you said faith without works is dead and works without faith is dead; you can't have one done meaninfully without the other.

Papist!

Qwinn

Sven · 08-14-2007 03:22 AM

Salvation

This is a tough one. If God is not a vengeful God, then from whom (or what) do we need to be saved? Ourselves? The little guy in the red jumpsuit with horns? Most claims to "salvation" I find to be self-serving. It's right up there with the ball player who crosses himself when he steps on home plate.

Qwinn · 08-14-2007 10:59 AM

I don't recall anyone ever saying (outside of straw man arguments) that God "is not a vengeful God". He is quite vengeful, actually. He's also supposed to be merciful though. It is certainly possible to be both, each at different times, based on the details of the circumstances, as it should be.

Qwinn

Jesus Is My Pilot · 08-14-2007 12:20 PM

Salvation is self-serving, each person has to make their own decisions and each person has to bear the consequence for them. Salvation is when someone is saved from their own sin. It's not so much that God is vengeful, though He is, it is that God is just. God must apply justice for each persons thoughts and actions.

That's the point of Jesus though, we are screwed if we try to save ourselves, there is no way we can meet the standard of a perfect God. Christ replaces our sin with His perfection... but there is a cost. You have to give your life to Christ in order to receive salvation.

EDIT - that reads a little preachier then I mean it to. Sorry.

Last edited by Jesus Is My Pilot (08-14-2007 12:22 PM)

Thundersnow · 08-14-2007 02:33 PM

in what sense-other than asking God into our lives-do we have anything to do with our salvation?

Thundersnow · 08-14-2007 02:42 PM

Some protestants belive such as well. Back to the faith without works bit. I don't understand Catholics praying to saints and considering Mary holy bit.

zukiphile · 08-14-2007 02:45 PM

Thundersnow wrote:
I don't understand Catholics praying to saints and considering Mary holy bit.

I don't think they are supposed to pray to saints or Mary.

A tolerance of practices that don't match stated theology perfectly isn't peculiar to RCs.

zukiphile · 08-14-2007 02:56 PM

chiscot wrote:
[Well this is a separate issue, but briefly, praying to saints is no different than you asking friends or family to pray for you for whatever reason. Praying to saints is only a request that they "go to bat" on your behalf with the big guy. Seeing as they have achieved heaven and have already lived lives pleasing to God, their intercession would have even more sway with the Big Guy than the prayers of your average Joe Blow here on Earth. They also serve as role models and symbols of hope for the faithful.

The problem for those observing from the outside the practice of various RCs is that some of them in fact worship Mary and pray to her as more than an intermediary.

Thunder, as to RCs considering Mary holy -- the doctrine of the immaculate conception is conventional christian theology holding that she was conceived without the original sin that burdens the rest of us.

I think zoroastrians had a similar doctrine as well, though theirs might just feature virgin birth.

Jesus Is My Pilot · 08-14-2007 03:02 PM

Why not just pray to Jesus?

chiscot wrote:
Catholics believe that we do save ourselves, in a sense, but not all by ourselves. Catholics would agree we cannot achieve a perfect life on our own. We need to ask for God's grace to perfect us and help us lead holy lives.

I hope we are just being semantic on this point but I think you are referring to sanctification; which is a life-long process of becoming more Christlike, it is not what gets you into heaven and it won't ever make you perfect.

What gets you into Heaven?

Thundersnow · 08-14-2007 03:03 PM

That clears up some confusion for me. I still think it is peculiar and slightly crazy however. If I can (and am told to) go directly to the CEO why would I talk to the middle managers first?

zukiphile · 08-14-2007 03:06 PM

chiscot wrote:
There is nothing wrong with praying to Mary or the saints. However the prayers should only be requests for intercession with God, not requests that they actually perform miracles or intervene in your life directly. I don't believe Catholic theology even believes that saints are capable of affecting events here on earth, other than indirectly by petitioning God on your behalf.

Which also raises the issue of why an omnipotent and omniscient God needs a bureaucracy. I could never figure out what good angels were, except that jehudis believed in them and pagan europeans found them a comfortable analogue for fairies and sprites.

zukiphile · 08-14-2007 03:11 PM

Thundersnow wrote:
That clears up some confusion for me. I still think it is peculiar and slightly crazy however.

Lots of things look nuts from the outside.

Thundersnow wrote:
If I can (and am told to) go directly to the CEO why would I talk to the middle managers first?

If you came from a company that required a preliminary visit with a middle manager, you might feel very uncomfortable doing it any other way. You might not even sign up with that company.

Lots of people came to christianity from all sorts of odd practices. I think it can be uncharitable to unduly discourage practice that doesn't reflect magisterium if it helps people understand some greater truth.

There is a strain of man-hatred and goddess worship that predated Christ and I've seen in nuns. I don't like it a bit, but if someone takes a different path, it won't keep me up nights.

Thundersnow · 08-14-2007 03:19 PM

chiscot wrote:
Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:
Why not just pray to Jesus?
Why ever ask family or friends to pray for you?

Faith is multiplied according to the bible. It doesn't say anything about asking the dead to pray for you. By the same token RC's believe in praying for the dead.

chiscot wrote:
I don't think this is just semantics, I think it is a real theological disagreement. I think it's important to define what is meant by perfect. Catholics believe you are in a perfect state of sanctification as soon as you are baptized. When we sin, we lose that perfection, however, every time we ask for forgiveness and do penance for our sin, we regain sanctifying grace and become perfect again. That doesn't mean we lose our susceptibility to temptation. We are still weak and we need God's grace to help us resist temptation. Indeed Catholics believe there are different types of grace and that we can accumulate grace. The more grace we acumulate, the mor Christlike we become.

What biblical foundation states that baptism is anything more than symbolic? Also God omnicsience would mean that he foreknew our sins past and present. There would be no need to constantly ask forgiveness, that is mans creation from fear. WHat would happen if Mother Theresa sinned right before dying and didn't get a chance to ask for forgiveness?

Thundersnow · 08-14-2007 03:23 PM

zukiphile wrote:
Lots of people came to christianity from all sorts of odd practices. I think it can be uncharitable to unduly discourage practice that doesn't reflect magisterium if it helps people understand some greater truth.

I agree with this and don't believe it affects salvation-something which far to many religions claim to have a monopoly on the path tobut I do believe we should educate our bretheren if we see a basic theological difference.

Thundersnow · 08-14-2007 03:24 PM

chiscot wrote:
Catholics don't believe that all Revalation is contained in the Bible. There are Traditions which predate the Bible which are also true forms of Revalation.

I did not know this. Is there a comprehensive list somewhere linkable? i don't go for tradition regardless. I see it as bondage.

zukiphile · 08-14-2007 03:27 PM

Thunder, I am shooting you my dopey answers because I think Jimp and Chiscot are discussing this a couple of levels beyond our understanding.

Thundersnow wrote:
What biblical foundation states that baptism is anything more than symbolic?

It is only within the last half millenium that christians have developed any sense that a lack of biblical foundation impugns a belief. They have had a history, tradition and doctrine beyond the bible.

Thundersnow wrote:
Also God omnicsience would mean that he foreknew our sins past and present. There would be no need to constantly ask forgiveness, that is mans creation from fear.

Except that you are not omniscient and your seeking forgiveness and recognizing your past error would be a normal part of trying to reconcile yourself with perfection.

Thundersnow wrote:
WHat would happen if Mother Theresa sinned right before dying and didn't get a chance to ask for forgiveness?

Presumably the moral habit of seeking forgiveness and reconciliation would operate.

News and Politics Forum

#1 08-09-2007 01:42 PM

Theology and the GOP debate

#2 08-09-2007 02:03 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

#3 08-09-2007 02:06 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

#4 08-09-2007 02:26 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:

#5 08-09-2007 02:55 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:

#6 08-09-2007 03:24 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

zuk wrote:

#7 08-09-2007 03:38 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:

#8 08-09-2007 04:22 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:

#9 08-09-2007 05:21 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

zukiphile wrote:

#10 08-09-2007 07:26 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

#11 08-14-2007 03:22 AM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

#12 08-14-2007 10:59 AM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

#13 08-14-2007 12:20 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

#14 08-14-2007 02:33 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

#15 08-14-2007 02:42 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

#16 08-14-2007 02:45 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

Thundersnow wrote:

#17 08-14-2007 02:56 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

chiscot wrote:

#18 08-14-2007 03:02 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

chiscot wrote:

#19 08-14-2007 03:03 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

#20 08-14-2007 03:06 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

chiscot wrote:

#21 08-14-2007 03:11 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

Thundersnow wrote:

Thundersnow wrote:

#22 08-14-2007 03:19 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

chiscot wrote:

Jesus Is My Pilot wrote:

chiscot wrote:

#23 08-14-2007 03:23 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

zukiphile wrote:

#24 08-14-2007 03:24 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

chiscot wrote:

#25 08-14-2007 03:27 PM

Re: Theology and the GOP debate

Thundersnow wrote:

Thundersnow wrote:

Thundersnow wrote:

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