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"Harmful" to whom?
Is harm necessarily bad, or not part of God's plan?
Some life on Earth wouldn't exist without virii or bacteria.
Harmful in that they would make Adam and Eve sick or cause them to die. My point is that Eden would not have been like the earth as we know it now.
Bill Thompson wrote:Why are we assuming there were harmful bacteria or viruses in Eden?
"Harmful" to whom?
Is harm necessarily bad, or not part of God's plan?
Some life on Earth wouldn't exist without virii or bacteria.
Exactly. Not to mention defining when they became harmful. Also, do we limit God creating life only in that 6-day window? Either way God could have created anew or changed either man or the bacteria to the extent that they didn't get along.
Using current thinking, I'd think it is safe to assume that death was part of the plan all along. Otherwise, what would limit population?
My point is that Eden would not have been like the earth as we know it now.
Good point.
I'd think it is safe to assume that death was part of the plan all along. Otherwise, what would limit population?
This is an interesting question, but according to RC theology (which allows for either an allegorical/symbolic reading of the Eden story or a literal one), Adam and Eve had perfect control over their impulses and desires. So they presumably would have been able to self-restrict population growth once it became a problem. We also can't foreclose the possibility that God would have intervened and taken people up to heaven or had some other plan for how to deal with over population that the Bible just never bothers to get into because it wasn't pertinent.
Actually, the Bible DOES get into the population issue. Multiple times God commanded all living things "to be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth..." That includes humans.
Every other living thing obeys that command without thinking. We humans don't, for the most part. Especially liberal humans hence the population decline in Europe and North America, supplanted by southern hemisphere people groups filling the vacuum left by birth control policies.
Actually, the Bible DOES get into the population issue. Multiple times God commanded all living things "to be fruitful, multiply, and fill the earth..." That includes humans.
Every other living thing obeys that command without thinking. We humans don't, for the most part. Especially liberal humans hence the population decline in Europe and North America, supplanted by southern hemisphere people groups filling the vacuum left by birth control policies.
I was specifically referring to maxing out the capabilities of the planets resources. Whether or not it is maxed out by Western society, "southern hemisphere people groups" or animals didn't come into my question.
But discussion of this is purely speculative, since we can't know what might have been.
... but I've just never seen any proof. So I just choose not to bother with it. It's, like, I could spend my whole life thinking about it... debating it in my head. Weighing the pros and cons. And in the end, I still wouldn't have any proof. So ...I don't even debate it any more. Because it's absurd.
But we choose to discuss it anyway. 
Especially liberal humans hence the population decline in Europe and North America
Liberal humans are the primary cause of population decline?
southern hemisphere people groups
Those damn Aussies.
Liberal humans are the primary cause of population decline?
I would say liberal propaganda has been. The contemptible and utterly debunked idiocy of Ehrlich's "The Population Bomb" is still believed to be true by many... actually probably most people.
Qwinn
I would say liberal propaganda has been. The contemptible and utterly debunked idiocy of Ehrlich's "The Population Bomb" is still believed to be true by many... actually probably most people.
I don't disagree that liberal propaganda has likely contributed to the population decline. I just don't think it has been on the levels that some maintain. One on the Left could just as easily assert that Rand's doctrine of 'rational self-interest' has contributed to the population decline. I believe both assertions are equally flawed in their scope, too simplistic, and probable political "splitting". I would posit that first world economics and technology has contributed more directly to the population decrease of Western countries. (We are really talking about decreases in the population increases as compared to the less-developed nations. Naturally, Asia has the largest boom).
Using current thinking, I'd think it is safe to assume that death was part of the plan all along. Otherwise, what would limit population?
in a perfect world, why would we have to?
Digging up demographics data on liberal versus conservative households is difficult work -- it can be done, but research time is limited on my part.
One number that I found quickly is that home schooled families exceed 3 children per family against some liberal-dominated areas like the District of Columbia (2.16). One would expect that home-school families to trend conservative and for Washington DC to trend liberal.
Nation wide, family size is about 2.52, but that will vary county-by-county, with the largely urban areas lower than rural areas, but again, pulling together all the numbers to "prove" that is time consuming. I have access to a lot of demographic data, but it is sorted by ZIP code, and there are a whole lotta ZIP codes to search through. I've noted the trend from my church starting work for some time, however, and others have written on the subject.
The zero population growth meme, the abortion on demand ethic (and practice), and the me first attitude of the nihilist (tending) liberals have all worked in concert to cause them to damage their own hopes of having a sustainable population.
Zed wrote:Using current thinking, I'd think it is safe to assume that death was part of the plan all along. Otherwise, what would limit population?
in a perfect world, why would we have to?
I guess we'd have to define 'perfect' first. But assuming that everyone lived forever on this planet, and everyone procreated, and everyone still ate food... we'd eventually run out of space. Not perfect. There would have to be some major shifts in the laws of nature.
...according to human understanding.
One number that I found quickly is that home schooled families exceed 3 children per family against some liberal-dominated areas like the District of Columbia (2.16). One would expect that home-school families to trend conservative and for Washington DC to trend liberal.
Hey! Conservatives live there, too! But, um, yeah, I have a liberal friend who's favorite topic is overpopulation. He has one son.
Guy's post on page 1 was pretty good. I was going to write something three pages long but he summed it up succinctly. Some additional reading for those interested:
Lay article: "The Matrix: Life's Support System"
Technical paper: "A Possible Function of Entamoeba histolytica in the Creation Model"
Technical lay article: "Why Did God Make Viruses?"
Technical paper: "Did God make pathogenic viruses?"
From the last link:
A major line of reasoning used to argue against the creationist worldview is ‘why a benevolent God would create pathogenic organisms whose sole function seems to be to cause disease and suffering?’ The account of Noah and the flood is often criticised by the claim that God must have wanted pathogenic viruses in the world: because they exist today, God must have brought them on the ark. . . .
Although viruses were discovered only at the turn of this century, research has now found a substantial amount of evidence that they serve several major roles in ecology and are actually essential for life. . . .
Viruses now are known to serve several beneficial roles, and research has indicated several others may be important. According to this model, disease is not a result of viruses as much as a breakdown of a virus/host relationship. [Italics in original, bold added.]
jennifer wrote:Zed wrote:Using current thinking, I'd think it is safe to assume that death was part of the plan all along. Otherwise, what would limit population?
in a perfect world, why would we have to?
I guess we'd have to define 'perfect' first. But assuming that everyone lived forever on this planet, and everyone procreated, and everyone still ate food... we'd eventually run out of space. Not perfect. There would have to be some major shifts in the laws of nature.
IF, by "perfect world" we are assuming the biblical worldview and God's plan, then we also have to interject the cosmos into the equation. The Scriptures have always carried forth in their writing the concept of "heaven" which is more than "just" the Earth. While we are never given any details as to what "heaven" will look like, location etc., (sorry Mormons -- your version is pure fantasy and has no scriptural grounding) inference would seem to indicate that we may be designed to populate the cosmos. Why else (from God's point of view) create such a marvel if not to populate it?
We should take note of the fact that the current population of the world would fit comfortably in the land mass called Texas... And, that we can easlily feed everyone now living -- if we want to. We don't -- mainly because of political and economic reasons -- not because we can't.
inference would seem to indicate we'd populate the cosmos exactly where?
inference would seem to indicate we'd populate the cosmos exactly where?
Guy is afk for 40 days in the desert. Wish I could answer you question for you. Could you clarify?
There are a lot of evidences that suggest Earth is in a special place. One of them is that we are in a place that lets us see a large part of the universe (something a bit rare as cosmologists determine). While Guy and I differ on how livable the cosmos is (my optimism is not as great as his), I agree it can be done in theory, and that is so because we are placed in a part of the cosmos that can facilitate that endeavor.
my point was there isn't anything concrete about where "heaven" is.
my point was there isn't anything concrete about where "heaven" is.
http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&sou … h&z=19
This is worth my breaking silence...
Perhaps some of you will understand this version:
Genesis 1
Boreded Ceiling Cat makinkgz Urf n stuffs
1 Oh hai. In teh beginnin Ceiling Cat maded teh skiez An da Urfs, but he did not eated dem.
2 Da Urfs no had shapez An haded dark face, An Ceiling Cat rode invisible bike over teh waterz.
3 At start, no has lyte. An Ceiling Cat sayz, i can haz lite? An lite wuz.4 An Ceiling Cat sawed teh lite, to seez stuffs, An splitted teh lite from dark but taht wuz ok cuz kittehs can see in teh dark An not tripz over nethin.5 An Ceiling Cat sayed light Day An dark no Day. It were FURST!!!1
6 An Ceiling Cat sayed, im in ur waterz makin a ceiling. But he no yet make a ur. An he maded a hole in teh Ceiling.7 An Ceiling Cat doed teh skiez with waterz down An waterz up. It happen.8 An Ceiling Cat sayed, i can has teh firmmint wich iz funny bibel naim 4 ceiling, so wuz teh twoth day.
9 An Ceiling Cat gotted all teh waterz in ur base, An Ceiling Cat hadz dry placez cuz kittehs DO NOT WANT get wet.10 An Ceiling Cat called no waterz urth and waters oshun. Iz good.
11 An Ceiling Cat sayed, DO WANT grass! so tehr wuz seedz An stufs, An fruitzors An vegbatels. An a Corm. It happen.12 An Ceiling Cat sawed that weedz ish good, so, letz there be weedz.13 An so teh threeth day jazzhands.
14 An Ceiling Cat sayed, i can has lightz in the skiez for splittin day An no day.15 It happen, lights everwear, like christmass, srsly.16 An Ceiling Cat doeth two grate lightz, teh most big for day, teh other for no day.17 An Ceiling Cat screw tehm on skiez, with big nails An stuff, to lite teh Urfs.18 An tehy rulez day An night. Ceiling Cat sawed. Iz good.19 An so teh furth day w00t.
20 An Ceiling Cat sayed, waterz bring me phishes, An burds, so kittehs can eat dem. But Ceiling Cat no eated dem.21 An Ceiling Cat maed big fishies An see monstrs, which wuz like big cows, except they no mood, An other stuffs dat mooves, An Ceiling Cat sawed iz good.22 An Ceiling Cat sed O hai, make bebehs kthx. An dont worry i wont watch u secksy, i not that kynd uf kitteh.23 An so teh...fith day. Ceiling Cat taek a wile 2 cawnt.
24 An Ceiling Cat sayed, i can has MOAR living stuff, mooes, An creepie tings, An otehr aminals. It happen so tehre.25 An Ceiling Cat doed moar living stuff, mooes, An creepies, An otehr animuls, An did not eated tehm.
26 An Ceiling Cat sayed, letz us do peeps like uz, becuz we ish teh qte, An let min p0wnz0r becuz tehy has can openers.
27 So Ceiling Cat createded teh peeps taht waz like him, can has can openers he maed tehm, min An womin wuz maeded, but he did not eated tehm.
28 An Ceiling Cat sed them O hai maek bebehs kthx, An p0wn teh waterz, no waterz An teh firmmint, An evry stufs.
29 An Ceiling Cat sayed, Beholdt, the Urfs, I has it, An I has not eated it.30 For evry createded stufs tehre are the fuudz, to the burdies, teh creepiez, An teh mooes, so tehre. It happen. Iz good.
31 An Ceiling Cat sayed, Beholdt, teh good enouf for releaze as version 0.8a. kthxbai.
Genesis 2
1 So datz how teh skyz an teh Urfs wur finishd, an al teh stufz in dem. 2 An on Caturday, Ceiling Cat was dun makin al dat stuf; an he restd, thinkn uv how awsum it wuz.3 An to clbrate, Ceiling Cat made Caturday speshl, an sed "Do not want bad stuf on Caturday"; cuz dats when he restd frum all his werk creatin and makin cool stuf.
Boi
4 Anywayz, here ar teh ppl Ceiling Cat made when teh skyz an teh Urfs wur reddy.
5 Urfs had no farm plantz n farm catnipz n stuff yet, cuz Ceiling Cat no maek rainz yet, but iz ok cuz kittehs DUNT LYKE wetfurz. An ther wuznt any farmrz eethr.6 But teh fogz caem in liek in Frisco an waterd teh entyre grownd so teh plantz wud be happee.7 An Ceiling Cat madez a boi outta teh durt, did invisibl CPR, an teh durt boi wuz a reel boi.
8 An Ceiling Cat growed a gardn in Eden (datz in teh eest... wen u lookie norf and tern rite), an Ceiling Cat tuk da boi thare.9 An Ceiling Cat growed lotsa prity and yummy farm treez! Teh tree of happee an teh tree of morulz wur in teh middl of teh gardn.
Geografee
10 Bai teh way, if u iz a geografee nut, a rivr caym frum Eden to watr teh gardn, an it splitted intu 4 rivrz wit srsly weerd naemz.11 Rivr numbah 1 wuz Pison (did u sneez? blez u!). It wint to Havilah, an gold iz thare.12 An itz rly awsum gold!!!!111 Ohyeah, therz sum stuf calld "bdellium" an "onyx" thare, too.13 Rivr numbah 2 wuz Gihon (it spellz "nohig" backwrdz... not so great acshully). It wint to Ethiopia. So nou u knowz how to getz to Ethiopia.14 Rivr numbah 3 wuz Hiddekel (yes, srsly). It wint to Assyria. And rivr numbah 4 wuz Euphrates (u afrayd o'theez?). Now, bak to teh storie.
Boi an Gurl
15 So Ceiling Cat put teh boi in teh gardn to be itz farmr.16 An Ceiling Cat sed to teh boi, "See all theez froot treez? Knok yurself owt.17 But dont eet teh froot of the tree of morulz, cuz if u eatz that then ULL DIE! Srsly! kthxbye."
18 An Ceiling Cat sed, "teh boi is alown an dat iz bad; he needz frendz so i wil maek him a gud helpr."19 So Ceiling Cat made farm animulz and birdies frum durt. An Ceiling Cat brot them to teh boi to c wat he wud naym them: an teh animulz wur calld wutevr teh boi calld them. If thay didnt liek it, tuff tamales, thay wuz stuk wif it.20 An teh boi naymd all thoze animulz, but nun of dem wuz a gud helpr. 21 So Ceiling Cat gived teh boi invisible sleepin pill an did sum surjerie an tuk owt wun of teh boiz rib bonez. Ohyeah, an Ceiling Cat put teh skin bak on, so teh boi wudnt freek latr.22 An Ceiling Cat transformd teh rib bonez into a perty gurl. Ceiling Cat tuk teh gurl to teh boi, then watchd teh fun begin. 23 Teh boi sed, "Her boddy caim frum my boddy? Sweet! I callz her 'Gurl' cuz she caim frum a boi, an it sowndz betr than 'Frumboi'."
24 Thatz wiy a boi leevz his mommy an daddy an getz mareed to a gurl.
25 Teh boi an gurl wared invisible fur, an didnt fink it wuz bad.
Genesis 3
Wat Happnz Wen U No Listn to Ceiling Cat
1 Sneeky snaik is sneeky. Teh snaik sed to teh gurl, "'No eat froot,' Ceiling Cat says? 'Or u die,' Ceiling Cat says?"
2 An teh gurl sed, "We can has froot.3 But we no can has froot frum teh tree in teh middl of teh gardn. Ceiling Cat sez, 'If u tuch it or nom it, ull die. So pawz off.'"
4 Teh snaik sed, "U wont die frum froot, srsly.5 Ceiling Cat just sed dat cuz teh froot will maek u guyz smart. U guyz wud be ceiling catz, cuz u wud hav morulz!!!11
6 Teh gurl saw teh froot had a flavr, an it lookd yummy. It wud giv her sum morulz, too. So she nom-nom-nomd teh froot. She gaev sum to teh boi, an he nom-nom-nomd teh froot too.7 Then thay got morulz, so it didnt taek too long to figgur owt thay wuz naked. Boi an gurl maded sumfin owt of leevz to keep teh praivits praivit.8 Wen thay heerd Ceiling Cat chasin buttrfliez in teh gardn, thay jumpd in a bush to plai hide-an-seek, xcept thay hopd Ceiling Cat wud frget bout teh "seek" part. He dint.
9 Ceiling Cat sed, "Boi? Boi?? BOI!!!"
10 Boi sed, "Ohai. I heerd u ovr thare, but ai freekd owt cuz ai wuz naked, so ai hid in teh bush."
11 Ceiling Cat sed, "Wayt a minit! How did u fynd owt? U didnt eat teh bad froot, did u?"
12 Boi said, "Rmembr teh gurl u mayd for me? Ai onli eated teh froot cuz she gaev it to me."
13 Ceiling Cat sed to teh gurl, "U did WUT?" Gurl said, "Teh snaik playd durty trik on me, an ai eated teh froot. It taysts gud, but dat not poynt."
No srsly.14 Ceiling Cat sed to teh snaik, "Cuz u did dis, ur cursd aboov all teh moocows an farm animulz!!!11 Ur gonna moov on yur belly forevah, cuz ai gonna taek ur legs an giv dem to teh Chinese to eat!!!!111 Ur gonna eat durt forevah!!!!!115 Im gonna maik gurlz afrayd of snaikz, an teh macho boiz will squash u on teh hed to impress them, an all ull do is giv them a littl boo-boo on thair foot."
16 Ceiling Cat sed to teh gurl, "Ur gonna hav sum srs hurtz wen u giv birfs to yur kittehs. An frum nou on, yur hubs iz gonna rool ovr u, an u hav to do wat he sayz.
17 Ceiling Cat sed to teh boi, "Cuz u listnd to teh gurl insted of me, teh grownd iz cursd, an ull b wrkin ur buttz off ur hol life. An makin cheezburgers will be vry hard now.18 Ull hav to get rid of weedz to grow stufs, an ull hav to eat teh farm plantz.19 Ur gonna hafta swet leik crazee if u wantz cheezburgerz. An itll b leik dat until u die an turn bak into durt, cuz datz ware u caim frum anywai.
20 Teh boi naymd his gurl Eve cuz she wuz teh mothr of all ppl (an cuz if he naymd her Bertha he woulda been lol'd at all da tiem).21 It wuz gettin rly awkwurd, so Ceiling Cat mayd sum clothz for dem.22 An Ceiling Cat said, "Lookie, thay iz leik us, cuz thaye has morulz! Letz do sumfin so thay wont taek teh cheezburgerz of teh tree of happee, cuz then thay wud liv forevah!!!11 Wud b bad."23 So Ceiling Cat kicked teh boi outta teh gardn to be a farmr. An it stinkd cuz ther wasnt no unytd farmwurkor union.24 Wen thay wuz owt, Ceiling Cat put sum hover d00ds an a rly sharp candel at teh welcom sign, so no kittehs wud get to teh tree of happee. Evah.
John 1
Teh Cat Macro Becamded Flesh
1 In teh beginz is teh meow, and teh meow sez "Oh hai Ceiling Cat" and teh meow iz teh Ceiling Cat.2 Teh meow an teh Ceiling Cat iz teh bests frenz in teh begins.
3 Him maeks alls teh cookies; no cookies iz maed wifout him.4 Him haz teh liefs, an becuz ov teh liefs teh doodz sez "Oh hay lite."5 Teh lite iz pwns teh darks, but teh darks iz liek "Wtf."
6 And teh Ceiling Cat haz dis otehr man; his naem iz John.7 He tellz teh ppl dat teh lites is tehre, so dat teh doodz mite bleev"8 Him wuz not teh lite; he jsut sez teh lites is tehre.9 Teh tru lite ov lotz of lite wuz comes, k?
10 He iz liek, "Oh hai, I mades u," but teh wurld duznt sees him.11 He iz comes to his stuffs, but his stuffs sez "Do not want!"12 And sum guyz did want, and sez "Teh Ceiling Cat pwns," and deez guyz iz liek his kidz—13 But not liek reel kidz, k? Iz liek teh Ceiling Cats kidz.
I can has messiah???14 Teh cat macro comez dwn frm Ceiling (omg) and he is lives wif us. We is sees teh glorie taht is frum teh one n only; him come from teh dad wif teh grace and teh truth.
15 John is liek "Oh hai" becuz uf him. He sez "OMG tihs guy iz teh one taht is comes after me him iz bettr becuz him comes frst, k?"16 Becuz is a lotz of grayce we can has cheezburgers.17 Moses is liek "Hay I has teh lawz"; Jebus is has teh grayce and teh trooth.18 Ceiling Cat is Invisible, but teh one n only (him is wif Ceiling Cat) is liek "Hay look."
John teh Baptist Sez "I Iz Not teh Chozen Won!! No Wai!!11!!!1!!1!!
19 Dese are teh meows sez by John when da religulous autoritahs in Jerusalem sent Levites and Pretchers to ax "OMG! Who r u?"20 John says "Me no lyer, not teh Chozen1, Ceiling Cats kitteh"
21 They asked him, "Who R u? R u Elikhat?"
He said, "Omg no!"
"R u teh Profitz?"
He sez, "WTF? Omg, No!"
22 Tehn they wuz, "LOL, so hoo ar you?"
23 John got all liek profitz Isaiah LOL srsly, "O hai I am liek gai meowing from teh littr box, 'Strayten up for Ceiling Cat but DO NOT USE vacuum!!!!1!' "
24 Pharisees sez,25 "Oh hai wai you washt ppl if no Chozen1 or profit? NO LIKE WET FURZ!!1!"
26 John sez "Ai washt wit water (WTF???). But among yoos is kitteh u not no,27 Him folowz me, an ai no allowd to play wit hes shooz."
28 Wuz at Bethany cross water wher John wuz washiz.
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