George Floyd

Has anyone else watched the video of the cop kneeling on the man's neck until he dies?

The mayor is calling for the DA to put forward charges against the arresting officer.

I've watched and can't see any justification for what happened.

Minneapolis is going to burn.
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Comments

  • edited May 28
    I saw video that went straight from the man being cuffed and going without any resistance to the man on the ground near a car with a PO kneeling on the man's neck with some people, presumably the people taking the video, yelling at the PO.

    Looks like it may have been a contempt of cop punishment.
  • I watched it.
    Agreed, Dave
  • I'm hesitant to make any judgements without seeing a one-take video from beginning to end or multiple viewpoints, if such a thing exists. That said, excessive force certainly seems plausible, nigh probable.
  • dgmdgm
    edited May 28
    Even without a one-take video...

    Why was the cop kneeling on his neck for several minutes, with two other cops holding him down prone at the same time? It does not appear that they were actually DOING anything other than killing him.



    And regardless of what may have happened prior to the several minutes it took for the cop to suffocate him, the cop had a legal and moral obligation to continue assessing the condition of the suspect. He was handcuffed already.

    The two primary visible cops are no strangers to UOF complaints.
    https://thegrio.com/2020/05/27/video-shows-george-floyd-not-resisting/

    The technique used by the officer (kneeling on a man's neck) is not authorized by MPD, and besides the neck kneeling, the prone position may have more to do with the positional asphyxia suffered by Mr Floyd.
    https://heavy.com/news/2020/05/george-floyd-video/

    Oh, and I was right. Minneapolis is burning.

    The Target in that neighborhood that was completely looted and destroyed is apparently a testing facility for Target's advanced "loss prevention" systems, which has led to a build-up of resentment.

    There's a lot going on here.

    I wonder if that piece of shit Ilhan Omar will have anything to say about all of this, since it's her district.
  • I didn't want to watch the video because I thought it would be another one of those #outrage scenarios that's mostly built on BS. This time is pretty bad, that cop killed him. I'm sure Floyd resisted arrest and warranted a take-down but there was almost 5 minutes where he was completely unresponsive and the cop kept his knee on his neck. Growing up and watching the show COPS I've always hated how cops are allowed to do that move, I don't care that these are the worst people on their worst day or how effective the move is.

    That said, the only evidence of racism are the bystanders saying racist things to the cops (one of whom is clearly Asian).

    The city is definitely going to burn.
  • "And regardless of what may have happened prior to the several minutes it took for the cop to suffocate him, the cop had a legal and moral obligation to continue assessing the condition of the suspect."

    On the nose.

    This scenario strikes me as less subtle than the Eric Garner video.
  • Wow, yeah, those videos are pretty damning.
  • This is even worse than the guy who was shot in the back when we ran from that one cop a few years ago.
  • I think this one is actually going to get worse as new evidence comes out.

    The cop's behavior is inexplicable, with the information we have.

    I can't conceive of any information that we could get that would make what happened justifiable. What I *CAN* imagine is information coming out that will show the situation to be even more awful.
  • Live feed of the rioting in Minneapolis.


    They burned the 3rd police precinct.
  • edited May 29
    At one point, the officer with his knee on Floyd's neck draws mace, because the mob surrounding the scene was so unruly. While the officer may be found culpable for maintaining that choke and failing to monitor Floyd's breathing and pulse, that failure may be mitigated by the constant distraction and threat of violence from the crowd surrounding the arrest.

    The man closest to the camera in particular was falsely claiming that Floyd had stopped resisting well before he had actually stopped resisting. The same man threatened to assault the officers.

    Floyd might still be alive if any one of several things had gone better, including the arresting officer shifting his weight off Floyd's neck as soon as he'd gone limp instead of staying there for about 4 minutes after Floyd had gone limp. Things also might have gone better if the aggressive crowd had backed off. Without the threat presented by that crowd, the officers may have done a much better job. Its a threat a trained police officer should be able to handle without murdering a suspect in custody, but getting that close and loud to those two cops certainly didn't help the situation.

    Neither a conviction nor acquittal for the arresting officer would surprise me.
  • edited May 29
    At least the locals are burning down the area shops. That'll help fix everything.

    Welcome to a future of nail salons, liquor stores, check cashing stores and fast food joints.
  • They also burned down the police precinct building where the incident occurred, among other things.
  • The officer who killed Floyd, Derrick Chauvin, has been taken in to police custody. I don't know if he's being charged or under protection. Maybe both?
  • Breaking: He's now been charged with murder and manslaughter.

    How is it both with a single victim?
  • edited May 29
    Good.

    I heard it was 3rd degree murder and voluntary manslaughter.

    Aren't they basically the same?

  • The statutes are a little different.

    609.195 MURDER IN THE THIRD DEGREE.

    (a) Whoever, without intent to effect the death of any person, causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life, is guilty of murder in the third degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 25 years.

    609.205 MANSLAUGHTER IN THE SECOND DEGREE.

    A person who causes the death of another by any of the following means is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than ten years or to payment of a fine of not more than $20,000, or both:

    (1) by the person's culpable negligence whereby the person creates an unreasonable risk, and consciously takes chances of causing death or great bodily harm to another; or

    The key difference seems to be the "depraved mind" aspect of Murder 3. You did something so dangerous, knowing it was dangerous and not caring that it might kill someone.

    Manslaughter 2 seems to be more about carelessly causing death through negligence, not because you don't value life, but maybe through lack of forethought.
  • dgmdgm
    edited May 29
    "How is it both with a single victim? "

    If the prosecution can't meet the burden on the greater charge, they may meet the burden on the lesser.

    The jury will need to determine whether in fact it was murder or manslaughter.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesser_included_offense
  • https://www.karaluslaw.com/criminal-defense-attorney-minnesota/depraved-mind-and-felony-murder-accident-or-evil-intent/

    Depraved Mind Murder

    Depraved mind murder (or depraved heart murder as it is sometimes referred to) is a type of third-degree murder in Minnesota. Minnesota’s statute for depraved mind murder reads, “whoever, without intent…causes the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life…” is guilty of depraved mind murder. ¹ Charging a person with depraved mind murder relies on the assumption that there are reckless acts so dangerous that a person should be charged with murder if another person dies while you are engaging in them.

    Examples of depraved mind murder include violently driving an automobile ², the accidental discharge of a gun during a fight³, and Mohammed Noor’s widely publicized charge of shooting a woman while on duty as a police officer.
  • Ahh, that makes sense.
  • Keep in mind... that's my lay-opinion on this. Zuk may offer better than this.
  • Atlanta tried to be cool with protesters but now we have sympathy burns.
  • I finally read the charging document, which indicates that Floyd said he was having trouble breathing while he was still standing, well before Chauvin put his knee on his neck, and that there were "no physical findings that support a diagnosis of traumatic asphyxia or strangulation.

    If it turns out that Floyd just OD'ed in police custody, I wonder how many of the people who rushed to judgment will learn anything from it. I wonder whether that would lead to a wrongful discharge claim against the department that fired all these officers.

    That itself is odd, that they were all fired so quickly, without any kind of union process, rather than just being suspended pending investigation.
  • Dave, I don't have anything better than that.

    They can grieve it even if the union doesn't back them. The CBA likely has a progressive discipline requirement and it is unlikely that each of them were at exactly the same point in that process just prior to the incident. By the time the grievance is arbitrated there should be less heat and more information.
  • edited May 30
    Slap - Even if Floyd's death was a result of ODing or a prior condition, didn't Chauvin have a duty to monitor the guy's physical condition? It would seem like once a suspect is arrested and subdued, the officers should have responsibility for the suspect's health and welfare.
  • "Slap - Even if Floyd's death was a result of ODing or a prior condition, didn't Chauvin have a duty to monitor the guy's physical condition? It would seem like once a suspect is arrested and subdued, the officers should have responsibility for the suspect's health and welfare."

    Absolutely. How well he fulfilled that duty, and whether his failure was the most proximate cause of Floyd's death is in question. If the angry man in the crowd hadn't just shouted commands and threats at the police officers, but had drawn a gun and opened fire, shooting Chauvin and Floyd, we wouldn't be having a discussion about whether or not Chauvin failed to perform his duty to monitor Floyd's health. There would be a clear, proximate cause of Floyd's death unrelated to Chauvin's failure to perform his duties better.

    If Floyd OD'ed, then Chauvin's failure to perform his duty to monitor his health, might not have been as proximate a cause of Floyd's death, as Floyd's decision to take drugs.

    I'm not excusing Chauvin's excessive force which is apparent whether or not he caused Floyd's death and, which suggests that Chauvin has earned some discipline and/or retraining, no matter what happens with the criminal charges, but causation and mens rea are important elements in figuring out whether or not Chauvin actually committed a crime.

    The rush to support the narrative with video that conveniently excludes Floyd saying he was having trouble breathing before he dropped to the ground, stinks of spin, perhaps not as egregious as "Hand up, don't shoot" fiction, but still eager to imagine the worst about this cop, primarily because of the colors of Chauvin and Floyd's skin.

    If Floyd's drug use and the stress of being pulled over and arrested killed him, and the timing of his heart attack coincided tragically with what police see pretty frequently from people lying to make their arrest as difficult as possible, this might be a tragedy rather than a crime. Maybe he didn't drop to the ground to make it harder to put him in the police vehicle; maybe that's when his heart attack was starting. How does a drugged out man communicate that his chest pains might be from something other than the three officers kneeling on his back and neck?

    If the full autopsy report shows that Floyd was dying before Chauvin put his knee on Floyd's neck, and the cops failed to realize his distress because they were being threatened by an angry racist crowd, I could see that negligence not leading to any criminal liability.

    On the other hand, if no other clear indication of Floyd's death shows up, and instead its revealed that Chauvin had said something like, "Gee I hope all these junkies just drop dead so we can stop wasting our time dealing with them." I could see Prosecutors getting a conviction on the murder 3 charge.

  • When I was a kid I did a lot of street racing and inevitably there would be some cop that wanted to explain how unhappy I was making him by doing that.

    I’ve run from the police many times but I always had this simple guideline…

    When you’re trying to outrun the cops, if you don’t win the race in the first 30 seconds, you are probably going to lose. If they catch up to you, just pull over, chill out and cooperate. There is no situation that can’t be made worse with a surprisingly small dose of dumbassery, and this is not the situation you want to make worse.

    I would joyfully strangle the life out of that cop who had his knee on Floyd’s neck, just for the look on his face ALONE. And I would enjoy it.

    But it has to be asked…
    What did Floyd do to put himself in that position?

    I’ve probably had more law-enforcement contact than everybody else in this forum put together.

    I’ve been busted pulling a wheelie on a public road. In a car.

    I’ve been chased multiple times and a few of those ended with me getting caught.

    ‘I’ve even had an entire police department chase me for an hour before finally stopping me at a roadblock and hauling my drunk ass off to jail.

    (I had a ‘colorful’ youth)

    And yet, I have never, EVER found myself in a situation where I was being manhandled by the cops. And it’s not because I’m white, because that does not stop the cops from giving you an ass whooping if you insist on asking for one.

    It’s also not because I’m a nice guy, because when I was a young man I was an obnoxious fucking asshole. Seriously. Ask anybody who knew me back then.


    My uncle on my father’s side, who might be the smartest man I know, once told me; “Never tell a cop that he’s violating your constitutional rights, because he’ll violate the side of your head.“

    This was back in the 70s when it was still pretty common for the cops to give you a tune-up if they thought you needed it.

    Even so, I understood that he wasn’t really being literal; he was making a conceptual point.

    So let me make my own version of the same point…

    If you are not prepared to step out of your car, guns blazing like it’s the showdown at the OK corral, then put your fucking ego in check and chill the fuck out. The life you save may be your own.
  • My son is a pretty typical teenager in his reaction to this. We were talking about it last night and he angrily assumed the DA was sandbagging with the 3rd degree murder charge. I explained to him that DAs usually only want to bring charges that they think they’ll win. Showing prior intent is harder to prove than mere negligence, and 1st or 2nd degree might be harder win at trial. At least, I think that’s what they’re thinking.
  • That’s my assumption is well.
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